Comments on: "The Masculine problem" http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/ Helping people to connect with themselves so that they can connect better with others Sat, 11 Sep 2010 00:27:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Terrance Thames http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-26 Terrance Thames Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:28:53 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-26 You two are a rarity indeed :-)<br /><br />I think Mercedes hit it on the head with the word balance. Both of you have seemed to find a guy who can balance the feminine in you with the right kind of masculine presence. Now after re-thinking about how the article was written I want to bring up another potential reason why he might have put more blame on the men. In the seduction community men already blame women for everything. If he put the blame more on women then I believe a lot of community guys would have really jumped on board and felt validated in the way they already think. We as coaches have to help them take the responsibilty of the other sex and put on us so that we can start looking inward for answers to our REAL problems and not outward for places to blame. I do understand your point about generalizing. There are plenty of exceptions to those rules stated in the article. I know several women who think very low of themselves. They don't really fit this model. In a way though I still feel like women overall did evolve, which created the extra options that you mention. I am actually reading the blue truth right now...just started but it seems like its gonna be pretty good. You two are a rarity indeed :-)

I think Mercedes hit it on the head with the word balance. Both of you have seemed to find a guy who can balance the feminine in you with the right kind of masculine presence. Now after re-thinking about how the article was written I want to bring up another potential reason why he might have put more blame on the men. In the seduction community men already blame women for everything. If he put the blame more on women then I believe a lot of community guys would have really jumped on board and felt validated in the way they already think. We as coaches have to help them take the responsibilty of the other sex and put on us so that we can start looking inward for answers to our REAL problems and not outward for places to blame. I do understand your point about generalizing. There are plenty of exceptions to those rules stated in the article. I know several women who think very low of themselves. They don't really fit this model. In a way though I still feel like women overall did evolve, which created the extra options that you mention. I am actually reading the blue truth right now…just started but it seems like its gonna be pretty good.

]]> By: tinque http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-25 tinque Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:48:33 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-25 Merecedes - I'm wanting to say here too that women need to take responsibility for the increase in their "aggression", and I don't mean assertive here. There has been a marked increase in aggressive women over the years, and I don't think this is good, certainly not for a good relationship unless the gender roles are reversed which does happen.<br />I do understand that the author is wanting men to sit up and take notice, but the author ignores the fact that women are just as culpable.<br />You and I my sweet friend are in a very tiny minority. Not only with the work we've done on ourselves but also in the men we've chosen though we couldn't have chosen anyone else. We are a rarity. You do know that, yes?<br />xxoo Merecedes – I'm wanting to say here too that women need to take responsibility for the increase in their "aggression", and I don't mean assertive here. There has been a marked increase in aggressive women over the years, and I don't think this is good, certainly not for a good relationship unless the gender roles are reversed which does happen.
I do understand that the author is wanting men to sit up and take notice, but the author ignores the fact that women are just as culpable.
You and I my sweet friend are in a very tiny minority. Not only with the work we've done on ourselves but also in the men we've chosen though we couldn't have chosen anyone else. We are a rarity. You do know that, yes?
xxoo

]]> By: Miss Mercedes http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-24 Miss Mercedes Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:42:08 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-24 Tinque: I love this conversation. I guess I wasn't thinking about it from the perspective of being aimed at all men...for me, it was just a really good point and a lot of men needed to hear it. I happen to have a wonderful man who fits the right balance for me and I have the right balance for him...we're good together. But..I have been with men who needed to read this and I would have loved for my ex to read it and understand how to better relate to someone like me. It was J who knew how to bring out the feminine in me...and he did it by taking control as the man in the relationship. I love that...its something I'd never had before.<br /><br />I don't think I'd use the word "aggressive" to describe him though. "Assertive" is better and he's assertive both at work and in our relationship. I'm assertive as well, so it helps our relationship that he is even more so because if he wasn't, I would walk all over him (as I've done to men in the past) and I'd hurt him. For me, this assertive nature of his is necessary and I know there are a lot of women out there who want/need that in their lives too.<br /><br />I haven't read the books you refer to, but I will...and very soon. I'm very, very interested so thank you.<br /><br />M Tinque: I love this conversation. I guess I wasn't thinking about it from the perspective of being aimed at all men…for me, it was just a really good point and a lot of men needed to hear it. I happen to have a wonderful man who fits the right balance for me and I have the right balance for him…we're good together. But..I have been with men who needed to read this and I would have loved for my ex to read it and understand how to better relate to someone like me. It was J who knew how to bring out the feminine in me…and he did it by taking control as the man in the relationship. I love that…its something I'd never had before.

I don't think I'd use the word "aggressive" to describe him though. "Assertive" is better and he's assertive both at work and in our relationship. I'm assertive as well, so it helps our relationship that he is even more so because if he wasn't, I would walk all over him (as I've done to men in the past) and I'd hurt him. For me, this assertive nature of his is necessary and I know there are a lot of women out there who want/need that in their lives too.

I haven't read the books you refer to, but I will…and very soon. I'm very, very interested so thank you.

M

]]> By: tinque http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-23 tinque Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:22:05 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-23 Yes Terrance i can see what you're saying, yet I still feel too much blame being directed at the men though like you said it could be because the article is directed at men and also to make a point.<br />Now granted there are all kinds of men and all kinds of women. One cannot box and classify.<br />And I can only speak for myself and my experience. For me I have a strong and intense personality underneath a very soft what once was almost painfully shy exterior.<br />As I've grown and evolved the strong interior softened allowing my heart to come out and play, and the the soft exterior didn't harden so much as became more pliable, more fluid, very soft with strength in that softness. Is this making sense?<br />The man I am with has a definite masculine nature as in "mission" oriented yet not aggressive unless pushed. He is still VERY sensitive and soft. <br />In our relationship he is the masculine energy without the "aggression" (I really don't want that word here, but another escapes me for the moment), and I am the feminine energy though not as in the firestorm way as DD describes.<br />I don't see men as being as confused as to their "roles" or as as aggressive as the article describes though of course that's out there a plenty.<br />And I don't see women as being as "evolved" as the article suggests in that I see too many women not having found the balance in their "new found" advance in the business and finance world though many have.<br />That's all.<br />Have YOU ever read Blue Truth or Dear Lover, the latter being my hands down favorite though it may be too flowery in language for you?<br />xxoo Yes Terrance i can see what you're saying, yet I still feel too much blame being directed at the men though like you said it could be because the article is directed at men and also to make a point.
Now granted there are all kinds of men and all kinds of women. One cannot box and classify.
And I can only speak for myself and my experience. For me I have a strong and intense personality underneath a very soft what once was almost painfully shy exterior.
As I've grown and evolved the strong interior softened allowing my heart to come out and play, and the the soft exterior didn't harden so much as became more pliable, more fluid, very soft with strength in that softness. Is this making sense?
The man I am with has a definite masculine nature as in "mission" oriented yet not aggressive unless pushed. He is still VERY sensitive and soft.
In our relationship he is the masculine energy without the "aggression" (I really don't want that word here, but another escapes me for the moment), and I am the feminine energy though not as in the firestorm way as DD describes.
I don't see men as being as confused as to their "roles" or as as aggressive as the article describes though of course that's out there a plenty.
And I don't see women as being as "evolved" as the article suggests in that I see too many women not having found the balance in their "new found" advance in the business and finance world though many have.
That's all.
Have YOU ever read Blue Truth or Dear Lover, the latter being my hands down favorite though it may be too flowery in language for you?
xxoo

]]> By: Terrance Thames http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-22 Terrance Thames Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:34:04 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-22 Tinque- I'm glad to have you here. It's very interesting how one article can create so many views. I am too a big David Deida fan as I read and listened to the superior man and listened to several different workshops as well. What I saw in this article was him relating stage one relationships in the 60's evolve into stage two relationships through the feminist movement coupled with men feeling less masculine. In his eyes that makes men appear more passive and less masculine to what they used to appear as before the feminist movement. In other words women seemed to have evolved and men didn't evolve with them, in terms of keeping a healthy masculine energy. Obviously this isn't every man, but general what he is describing is a more stage two society where women got more comfortable in their masculine and men got more comfortable in there feminine. Also, I believe that there might be more of a shift in blaming men in this article might be due to marketing purposes since most of his clients are men. That's just speculation on my part so I would take that with a grain of salt. I didn't see it as a total blaming of men though. I saw it as an article written to bring both sexes on the same path. To get men more in touch with a stage 3 type of masculine presence because the stage one form of it will not work in today's society due to the evolution of women, in general. I am on my cell so I can't edit but I would love to hear your thoughts Tinque- I'm glad to have you here. It's very interesting how one article can create so many views. I am too a big David Deida fan as I read and listened to the superior man and listened to several different workshops as well. What I saw in this article was him relating stage one relationships in the 60's evolve into stage two relationships through the feminist movement coupled with men feeling less masculine. In his eyes that makes men appear more passive and less masculine to what they used to appear as before the feminist movement. In other words women seemed to have evolved and men didn't evolve with them, in terms of keeping a healthy masculine energy. Obviously this isn't every man, but general what he is describing is a more stage two society where women got more comfortable in their masculine and men got more comfortable in there feminine. Also, I believe that there might be more of a shift in blaming men in this article might be due to marketing purposes since most of his clients are men. That's just speculation on my part so I would take that with a grain of salt. I didn't see it as a total blaming of men though. I saw it as an article written to bring both sexes on the same path. To get men more in touch with a stage 3 type of masculine presence because the stage one form of it will not work in today's society due to the evolution of women, in general. I am on my cell so I can't edit but I would love to hear your thoughts

]]> By: tinque http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-21 tinque Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:11:33 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-21 What I'm wanting to say is that both men and women are "at fault" though I hate to lay blame.<br />Women have become stronger in the working world, but where I see some women, many women fail is to take that hat off when they get home as you've learned so well to do.<br />Men may or may not have become more passive. I don't see that. I see men being as aggressive if not more so and not all men of course. <br />I see too much masculine energy in relationships which will doom them to failure.<br />You and I know what a healthy balance looks like. We live it, maybe you more so than I since you have a more prominent "out there" side. Most couples don't.<br />Have you ever read David Deida? You should check him out. My two favorites are, Dear Lover and Blue Truth.<br />So I suppose what got my ire up was that the author, though he seemed to get what a relationship that works well looks like, also seemed to back down and take responsibility for the breakdown in relationship and marriage.<br />I say marriages lasted longer in times past not necessarily because the relationships were any healthier but because women for the most part had no income, had nowhere else to go, were considered "undesirable" at a younger age than now, ie. useless.<br />xxoo What I'm wanting to say is that both men and women are "at fault" though I hate to lay blame.
Women have become stronger in the working world, but where I see some women, many women fail is to take that hat off when they get home as you've learned so well to do.
Men may or may not have become more passive. I don't see that. I see men being as aggressive if not more so and not all men of course.
I see too much masculine energy in relationships which will doom them to failure.
You and I know what a healthy balance looks like. We live it, maybe you more so than I since you have a more prominent "out there" side. Most couples don't.
Have you ever read David Deida? You should check him out. My two favorites are, Dear Lover and Blue Truth.
So I suppose what got my ire up was that the author, though he seemed to get what a relationship that works well looks like, also seemed to back down and take responsibility for the breakdown in relationship and marriage.
I say marriages lasted longer in times past not necessarily because the relationships were any healthier but because women for the most part had no income, had nowhere else to go, were considered "undesirable" at a younger age than now, ie. useless.
xxoo

]]> By: Miss Mercedes http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-20 Miss Mercedes Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:23:05 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-20 Tinque: I had a totally different take on it. I didn't get the feeling the blame was being put solely into the laps of men. I get the feeling the blame was being put on how society has changed since feminism began and what needs to be done to allow women to move forward with strength and men to move forward with us. <br /><br />I loved this quote:<br /><br />"Here’s my opinion. There truly are legitimate and verifiable biological implications within the sexes that shape a relationship. In fact, in the healthy relationships I see (which are rare), these biological factors are mostly honored and the true nature of both genders is magnified and enhanced by the other leading to a stronger connection, a greater sense of acceptance and a more natural (less-forced) intimacy between the pair."<br /><br />This is exactly what I see in my own relationship and it is a healthy one. He allows me to be feminine...I allow him to be masculine and we magnify those qualities in each other when we're together. He inspires me (doesn't tell me...inspires me) to be less masculine when I walk out of my office and into his arms. My ex on the other hand...passive and I had to be masculine. Our relationship was unhealthy.<br /><br />This pretty much describes what we were like:<br /><br />"She is much more successful that he is, which is not necessarily a problem. On the surface, it seems fine to have the woman as the primary breadwinner. In fact, it IS fine. BUT, these two individuals lack the grace and intelligence to handle it. The consequences are that both complain endlessly about the other. They fight often. Barbara comes to work angry at her husband. Joseph feels misunderstood and disrespected."<br /><br />I don't agree with everything in the article, but for the most part, it nailed an issue affecting so many couples today. Women are successful and that should never (and will never) change. However, men will need to learn to deal with that success in masculine ways. When a woman is more successful than her partner, that partner can easily feel like less of a man. If he doesn't learn to take control in other areas of the relationship (which many times he doesn't) then his male ego takes a hit. He becomes more and more passive and she takes more and more control. <br /><br />I have a lot of female friends who are very successful. I myself am very focused on my career. I can tell you first hand...that can really hurt a relationship. It takes a strong, confident and very assertive man to handle a woman like me...and it's not just a problem with me...it's pretty widespread. <br /><br />I don't know if it's because men are becoming more passive or not. Maybe its that men are the same as they've always been but women are becoming more aggressive...thus closing the gap and making it seem like men are passive. In any case, from my experience, this problem really does exist and I seriously doubt many of these women are going to lose the boardroom and stay home...I know I couldn't do it (not even after I had children). So the answer must be that men will have to step up and strengthen their own masculinity if they want a good, strong, healthy relationship with these more masculine, sexy, confident women.<br /><br />Much Love,<br />Mercedes Tinque: I had a totally different take on it. I didn't get the feeling the blame was being put solely into the laps of men. I get the feeling the blame was being put on how society has changed since feminism began and what needs to be done to allow women to move forward with strength and men to move forward with us.

I loved this quote:

"Here’s my opinion. There truly are legitimate and verifiable biological implications within the sexes that shape a relationship. In fact, in the healthy relationships I see (which are rare), these biological factors are mostly honored and the true nature of both genders is magnified and enhanced by the other leading to a stronger connection, a greater sense of acceptance and a more natural (less-forced) intimacy between the pair."

This is exactly what I see in my own relationship and it is a healthy one. He allows me to be feminine…I allow him to be masculine and we magnify those qualities in each other when we're together. He inspires me (doesn't tell me…inspires me) to be less masculine when I walk out of my office and into his arms. My ex on the other hand…passive and I had to be masculine. Our relationship was unhealthy.

This pretty much describes what we were like:

"She is much more successful that he is, which is not necessarily a problem. On the surface, it seems fine to have the woman as the primary breadwinner. In fact, it IS fine. BUT, these two individuals lack the grace and intelligence to handle it. The consequences are that both complain endlessly about the other. They fight often. Barbara comes to work angry at her husband. Joseph feels misunderstood and disrespected."

I don't agree with everything in the article, but for the most part, it nailed an issue affecting so many couples today. Women are successful and that should never (and will never) change. However, men will need to learn to deal with that success in masculine ways. When a woman is more successful than her partner, that partner can easily feel like less of a man. If he doesn't learn to take control in other areas of the relationship (which many times he doesn't) then his male ego takes a hit. He becomes more and more passive and she takes more and more control.

I have a lot of female friends who are very successful. I myself am very focused on my career. I can tell you first hand…that can really hurt a relationship. It takes a strong, confident and very assertive man to handle a woman like me…and it's not just a problem with me…it's pretty widespread.

I don't know if it's because men are becoming more passive or not. Maybe its that men are the same as they've always been but women are becoming more aggressive…thus closing the gap and making it seem like men are passive. In any case, from my experience, this problem really does exist and I seriously doubt many of these women are going to lose the boardroom and stay home…I know I couldn't do it (not even after I had children). So the answer must be that men will have to step up and strengthen their own masculinity if they want a good, strong, healthy relationship with these more masculine, sexy, confident women.

Much Love,
Mercedes

]]> By: tinque http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-19 tinque Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:56:05 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-19 I'm sorry I couldn't finish the article. It was upsetting me too much. The premise is flawed as is the argument. <br />The author is blaming men far too much for being passive, etc. Women are as much to blame. Though I fully support equal rights, right to choose, etc., women, some women have taken this to an extreme as in being dominant, domineering ball busters, fine for the boardroom I suppose, but so unattractive to say the least in the bedroom. To lay the blame firmly in men's laps is unfair and not true,<br />And to use the these trends over the years for the growing divorce rate is only looking at part of the picture.<br />Women stayed in marriages because they had few choices, not necessarily that they were in happy, good marriages. More often than not they weren't. Men, some men, in the past were less attentive, affectionate, open, nurturing and maybe less faithful.<br />I can't speak for all men, and I can't speak to the younger generation of men, but I don't see men as becoming more passive except maybe in the face of those hard assed women I describe earlier. I see many men softening and becoming more balanced within a still strong masculinity.<br />Very ala David Deida of whom I'm a big fan.<br />So I'm saying that this article is being far too simplistic and downright inaccurate on some points. <br />But that any of this is being discussed at all is fabulous.<br />xxoo I'm sorry I couldn't finish the article. It was upsetting me too much. The premise is flawed as is the argument.
The author is blaming men far too much for being passive, etc. Women are as much to blame. Though I fully support equal rights, right to choose, etc., women, some women have taken this to an extreme as in being dominant, domineering ball busters, fine for the boardroom I suppose, but so unattractive to say the least in the bedroom. To lay the blame firmly in men's laps is unfair and not true,
And to use the these trends over the years for the growing divorce rate is only looking at part of the picture.
Women stayed in marriages because they had few choices, not necessarily that they were in happy, good marriages. More often than not they weren't. Men, some men, in the past were less attentive, affectionate, open, nurturing and maybe less faithful.
I can't speak for all men, and I can't speak to the younger generation of men, but I don't see men as becoming more passive except maybe in the face of those hard assed women I describe earlier. I see many men softening and becoming more balanced within a still strong masculinity.
Very ala David Deida of whom I'm a big fan.
So I'm saying that this article is being far too simplistic and downright inaccurate on some points.
But that any of this is being discussed at all is fabulous.
xxoo

]]> By: Miss Mercedes http://www.authenticdatingarts.com/blog/the-masculine-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Miss Mercedes Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:01:25 +0000 http://authenticdatingclub.com/the-masculine-problem/#comment-15 I loved this. Seems pretty dead on to me. Thanks for sharing it! I loved this. Seems pretty dead on to me. Thanks for sharing it!

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